Behind the Glow: How to Know If Your Red Light Therapy Actually Works with Bjorn Ekeberg of Flexbeam - Episode 269

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The wellness industry is flooded with red light therapy devices, but how do you separate the effective tools from the marketing hype? In this illuminating conversation with Bjorn Ekeberg, co-founder of Recharge Health, we uncover the science behind light therapy and explore why some devices deliver transformative results while others fall flat.

Did you know that near-infrared light can penetrate up to four inches into your body, reaching deep tissues, joints, and even organs? Or that the power output of a device is often more crucial than its wavelength specifications? Bjorn shares a simple but powerful rule of thumb: "If it doesn't have a fan, it's not strong enough." This insight helps explain why those inexpensive light therapy belts often fail to deliver meaningful results.

We dive deep into the cellular mechanisms at work, exploring how near-infrared light stimulates mitochondria—the energy centers that make up an astonishing 10% of your body weight. This cellular boost triggers cascading health benefits, from accelerated recovery and reduced inflammation to improved gut function and skin rejuvenation. Women experiencing perimenopausal or menopausal joint pain may find particular relief through targeted treatment, while athletes use it to prevent injuries and speed recovery from training.

The applications extend far beyond what most people realize. Recent research shows promising results for respiratory conditions (including post-COVID recovery), thyroid function, fertility concerns, and even cognitive performance through the gut-brain axis. Whether you're seeking pain relief, faster recovery, or preventive health support, understanding the science behind effective light therapy empowers you to make informed choices in this rapidly evolving field.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Red Light Therapy
• 6:29 Understanding Different Light Wavelengths
• 13:36 Power Output: What Makes Devices Effective
• 22:45 Health Benefits Beyond Pain Relief
• 35:51 Skin Benefits and Beauty Applications
• 42:54 FlexBeam Settings and Practical Applications
• 1:06:49 Episode Conclusion and Resources

Transcript

Sandy Kruse: 0:02

Hi everyone, it's me, Sandy Kruse of Sandy K, nutrition, health and Lifestyle Queen. For years now, I've been bringing to you conversations about wellness from incredible guests from all over the world. Discover a fresh take on healthy living for midlife and beyond, one that embraces balance and reason without letting only science dictate every aspect of our wellness. Join me and my guests as we explore ways that we can age gracefully, with in-depth conversations about the thyroid, about hormones and other alternative wellness options for you and your family. True Wellness nurtures a healthy body, mind, spirit and soul, and we cover all of these essential aspects to help you live a balanced, joyful life. Be sure to follow my show, rate it, review it and share it. Always remember my friends balanced living works. My friends, balanced Living Works. Hi everyone, welcome to Sandy K Nutrition, health and Lifestyle Queen.

Sandy Kruse: 1:38

This week, I am bringing to you a really great discussion all about red light therapy, and my guest is Bjorn Ekeberg of FlexBeam. So Bjorn's going to break it down for us and help us understand which red light therapies actually work and what do they work for. The fact is is that the market is saturated now and we buy all these devices. Some are really cheap, some are mid-range, some are really high end and we don't really necessarily know how to tell the difference. So on feedspotcom, I will have the actual link in my show notes. I was voted number three in the top 20 best holistic podcasts best holistic podcasts Guys. This is such a big deal for me and I'm going to tell you why and what makes it a big deal. I never paid a penny to be named here.

Sandy Kruse: 2:57

I've actually written a pretty important article, which I will also link in the show notes of this podcast on my LinkedIn, and it's really about this wellness industry, and I'm not calling specific people out, I don't do that. However, I'm in this wellness industry and I have seen unbelievable saturation, crowdedness, competitiveness, ego power you name it. Over the last eight years, it's become crazy and it's no different in some instances than big pharma, and so people are left saying, well, who do I trust, like, who do I trust? All these people are paying to be seen and who do I trust? Well, you trust yourself, and I get into this in this article on LinkedIn, so I will link it in the show notes. I would love for you to connect with me there from a business perspective. I do do a few things, but my number one passion over profit is this podcast. You're going to read about why in this LinkedIn article.

Sandy Kruse: 4:21

Also to support me, to support my work, to support my podcast. Follow me on all of my social media platforms it's Sandy K Nutrition everywhere. And for my new short form podcast called Think About it by Sandy K, you will have access in my sub stack if you are a paid member of my sub stack. Now, being a paid member isn't a fortune, it's eight bucks a month and it really just helps to support me as a writer and also as a podcaster. It's just helpful for me because, as I explained, mostly everything that I do on Sandy K Nutrition is not mostly all of what I do on Sandy K Nutrition is passion, passion over profit. That's the facts. So find me anywhere and everywhere. My sub stack is sandykruse. substackcom the link will be in the show notes and follow me there. You can also choose the free option as well.

Sandy Kruse: 5:43

I have some great episodes coming. I would love for you to hit follow wherever you are listening to this and share this episode with at least one person. Do it through text, do it through social media. Tag me at Sandy K Nutrition wherever it is that you do social media. And the other thing I'm going to ask you to do is to rate and review my podcast wherever you're listening, because this helps me to keep getting amazing guests each and every week, like Bjorn. And now let's cut on through to this amazing episode with Bjorn Ekeberg of FlexBeam. Hi everyone, welcome to Sandy K Nutrition, health and Lifestyle Queen. Today with me, I have a special guest. His name is Bjorn Ekeberg. I pronounced it right, didn't I? Bjorn? Bjorn is coming to us all the way from Norway. You're in Norway right now, aren't you?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 6:48

That's right, Sandy. It's a pleasure to be on.

Sandy Kruse: 6:51

Yeah. So Bjorn is the co-founder of Recharge Health and is pioneering breakthroughs in the wellness industry with FlexBeam. It is a targeted infrared therapy device that's transforming recovery for over 20,000 athletes and health enthusiasts, and I will say I have been using red light therapy for many years. We actually built a therapy room. You know, back this is probably going back, I think it's around seven years we were like, okay, what do we do with this space? Do we want to build a home gym? And we're like, no, let's build a therapy room instead. So we have infrared sauna, we have red light therapy.

Sandy Kruse: 7:37

Back then I didn't know about FlexBeam, and so I'm learning a lot more about FlexBeam. And today we're going to talk to you about red light. We're going to talk to you about the benefits, what to look for in a device, because the space is getting extremely crowded, and this is really just to help you understand why you would want this and truly, I can't imagine my life without red light. I feel like it's one of those necessary devices. So this is going to be a really good conversation and hopefully everybody will. You know, when they listen, they'll understand okay, I need this for this and this is what I look for, and this is how I can understand why there's so many different devices at so many different variances in price and cost and usage and it's getting confusing. So I'm just so happy to have you today, bjorn, just to clarify everything for us and, with that, welcome Thank you for coming today.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 8:43

Thank you so much for having me on, and let's at least give it a shot to try to clarify things. I can also see the space becoming incredibly confusing.

Sandy Kruse: 8:52

Yes, but you know what? Like, let's face facts. It's the wellness industry overall is getting pretty crowded and we kind of don't know, like okay, like what's right for me, and everybody has their own personal story on what they need certain things for. So I always like to ask what's your story? How did you get into this industry?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 9:15

I didn't consciously get into it, it pulled me in. I can say my background is I did a PhD in Canada, where you're based as well, and I had a career path that I was a philosopher of science and I was educated in a lot of history and philosophy of physics and cosmology, which I'd written a book about and I've debated and I'm often invited to discuss topics around that. Still, it was part of my sort of academic background, uh, and I made a conscious choice I wanted to be in the creative industries and build something and not be in academia. And then many, many years later, um, like about six years ago, uh, two of my current co-founders pulled me and I knew these guys from before. They were based in asia, they they were making hardware, electronics type things, solar cell lamps and they were deep into researching light and they told me they'd come across like they showed me the research like nasa research and behind that pubmed literature on something called photobiomodulation, uh, which is the sort of academic umbrella term for what we're going to talk about here today, like red light and near infrared light and ways you can heal yourself with light. And they were blown away by some of the studies that showed clear physiological impacts at the cellular level from exposure to near infrared light in particular, and also red light for skin, and they were just blown away that it's like. This is not something we'd heard about before, which it's also totally new to me.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 10:52

So they were in a position to make a device and like to actually design it from scratch, because they also realized when they researched this, like there are panels out there and there are lamps, and like you can buy the stuff but nobody seems to know about it, nobody's using it, and we figured the reason why is because it's really actually quite cumbersome to use it that way and it's not really optimally designed, and we thought in the future, this is something that is in needs to be in every person's home and the reason it's not there already which is astounding given that there are decades of research behind it is that nobody has made a device like good enough to use at home or something that really actually fits in.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 11:32

So that's what we set out to do and we teamed up with a doctor who medical doctor, who has worked in the space for 30 years with lasers and similar kinds of treatments and has always carried around a dream that this is something that people could have at home so they don't have to go to an expensive clinic like hers to get reactive kind of treatment but could actually proactive and preventively keep themselves really healthy.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 11:57

So my part of it was marketing and storytelling and like getting like trying to take this thing to market, trying to find an audience. And while we've been doing this and perfecting our sort of advanced, more innovative version of red light therapy, the space has just completely gone explosive like and it's suddenly now something pretty much every person I meet, in north america at least, have heard about it. Very few people may not have used it, but it's now now a big thing and when we started it was very nerdy and niche and that's only six years ago that it was like its own kind of little industry. So it's a very exciting time and yeah, that's sort of the background, how I came into it. And now I'm all about trying to drive this kind of broader awareness that I think we need about what light is and how it heals, and try to make sense of this discovery and make it accessible to everyone.

Sandy Kruse: 12:54

I think that that's a good place to start, right when you said what light is. So you know, we get so much conflicting information we get. You know avoid the sun, don't go in the sun, it's dangerous, it's going to give you skin cancer. But there's different spectrums and there's a safe way to be in the sun. And how does red light therapy connect to the sun? Because we know every living creature needs light. So can you get into that connection, bjorn?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 13:34

Yeah, if we start at the like, let's start at the macro level. Yeah, it's with the sun, right? Which is this like? We have our own relationship to the sun in our culture, but I think we largely take it for granted. But it is a source of energy in all our entire solar system. Everything that we see around us and ourselves are all based on the sun. It's like our plants the plants that we eat get their energy from the sun and the animals that eat the plants get energy from the sun, and so on, and we do directly ourselves.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 14:07

The sun comes to us, the way we measure it through physics, on an entire electromagnetic spectrum, as we call it.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 14:14

So it's a whole range of wavelengths that we've been able to identify, all the different peaks and valleys of what is in the sun's total energy field peaks and valleys of what is in the sun's total energy field, and that goes from the gamma rays on one side of the spectrum to like really minute, like longer wavelengths.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 14:31

In the middle you have something called visible light, which is the light that we see, and that's only a tiny part of that spectrum. And infrared is in the heat section of the spectrum, is invisible but it's close to it. So that's just the broader context that the sun has all of it and we're exposed to it all the time through our atmospheric bubble, in our little earthly corner. But most of the time when we are exposed to sunshine we get exposed to a whole range of wavelengths that are also off the spectrum of what we can see. A lot of that in the infrared range. Actually, more than half of the energy from the sun comes from infrared, which is associated wavelengths that are also off the spectrum of what we can see. A lot of that in the infrared range. Actually, more than half of the energy from the sun comes from infrared, which is associated with heat. So I just wanted to lay out if that makes sense as a starting point.

Sandy Kruse: 15:16

Mm-hmm.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 15:20

So this whole study of photobiomodulation, or how light affects our physiology, starts with some insights on how certain wavelengths seem to trigger certain responses in the body, and the standout here is near infrared light.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 15:36

It's in the spectrum of 800 to 880 nanometers, sometimes up to 950 if we're getting very technical, sometimes up to 950 if we're getting very technical. But where the body seems to like there is a cellular mechanism that starts happening. That's been uh well demonstrated and this light is something that we get if we're out in the sunshine a lot. But what red light therapy can do, and what we did in a concentrated device like our flex beam is just having these wavelengths that are clearly associated with the healing response in the body. Red light therapy can do and what we did in a concentrated device like our flex beam is just having these wavelengths that are clearly associated with the healing response in the body and just sort of isolate them so you can have access to them anytime. So it's more concentrated than the sun, but the energy in red light therapy and infrared light it is the same as what comes from the sun, so that's why it's an entirely natural kind of solution. We already get this, but not enough of it.

Sandy Kruse: 16:31

Okay, and not enough of it, I will say, because I think it's even worse now because everyone's like oh, you know the sun, the ozone, everyone's going to get skin cancer. Listen, I come from a very different point of view, where I try and get sun on my skin without sunscreen. Okay, not right now, because Toronto's horrible, but even when you're out in the daylight, like I walk my dog every single day during the day, and I try and get the light on my skin. There's certain situations, of course, like I'm not going to go and suntan and bake my skin, but a little bit of light is a good thing. So tell me why near is like, would you say, near is the most healing of all the spectrums of light.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 17:32

That's the one that's most closely associated with a cellular response, and the reason has to do with the wavelength, the length of the wavelengths, which is what determines where you are on the electromagnetic spectrum. So infrared wavelengths are longer than the visible ones we see, so they're too long for the eye to catch, but when they are just long enough they penetrate the skin. So the infrared that you get from the skin if you imagine that you, for example, face a beautiful sunset or sunrise or something that glow, you see the redness in that moment, but you can also feel the sun's impact on your skin. It feels warming. That warming effect is infrared. So even if you just saw a picture but there's more to it than just that it's a beautiful color that infrared, certain wavelengths of it, can penetrate. If you have enough dosage or enough concentration, you can penetrate two, three, up to four inches in through the skin. So that way you're able to reach cells, cells in muscle tissue, into joints, ligaments etc. And what's under the, the dermis and epidermis, like under the skin, and this opens up to an entirely different method of healing, in a way, because you're able to expose those cells to something that they then react to, and there's cascading reactions at the cellular level and with blood cells and so on that it's triggered.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 19:10

So this ability to actually go deep into the body without any invasive procedure, just through light, that is very specific to near infrared and I think that's related to why that has such an effect. Most other wavelengths cannot penetrate and if you go to a far infrared wavelength, for example, that is popular in saunas currently, that wavelength is actually so far it doesn't go through. It actually interacts with the skin and induces sweat, which is why people tend to like infrared saunas because it makes them sweat a lot. People tend to like infrared saunas because it makes them sweat a lot, right? So there's a very narrow window of wavelengths is what I'm after here that has this ability to penetrate the skin and that's, I think, the secret behind sort of near infrared therapy.

Sandy Kruse: 19:56

Can it reach as deep as like organs?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 20:01

Yes, it can if you are close enough to it and have the right dosage right. So I'm sure, as we're getting further into this, we'll discuss more around power and dosage and these like differentiating factors between devices out there. But if you have the right device and you can put it straight on like you can reach a kidney or a liver, for example, and shine a light there, and the reason why that is of significance for your health, potentially is that your organs are the most packed with mitochondria, which is the organelles in your cells that are responsible for energy production. You have them all over your body. In fact, it's been calculated that 10% of your body weight consists of mitochondria.

Sandy Kruse: 21:04

It's just like they are an enormously large part of your whole system, but they are unevenly distributed and there's a lot of them in your gut and in your organs specifically.

Sandy Kruse: 21:07

So, yes, targeted treatment is able to reach organs. Yeah, you and I were briefly talking for, for those of you listen, you know I don't have a thyroid gland those of you who have been listening to my podcast for a while, and so it's different for me but a lot of people who follow me have thyroid dysfunction and I do know that certain devices again, it depends, I guess, on the wavelength and the power can actually help those. And we're not making medical claims here, by the way, folks. We're just providing educational information. This is not medical information for anybody specifically who's listening, but I do know of individuals who have used specific red light therapy devices, who have Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune disease of the thyroid gland, because and I think one of the factors is exactly what you said, bjorn, about the mitochondria yeah, yeah, I think that's the main established mechanism in the literature for the question why the heck does this work?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 22:16

And then there's so many studies that show correlations between light, like using red light therapy, and versus control group for certain various outcomes for pain and inflammation, muscle repair recovery, pain and inflammation, muscle repair recovery. There's a whole lot that is studied in terms of its benefits, but the cellular level, it's the mitochondria that seem to be the trick, and mitochondria are essential for your health in any kind of longevity sense as well.

Sandy Kruse: 22:47

Yeah. So for anyone who doesn't know, I mean your mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell and we know that as we age, our mitochondria gets, or can get, more and more dysfunctional as we age, right, so it's pretty important that we keep these little mitochondria healthy. Question so we kind of touched on near, but what about mid? Because you hear near mid, far. What does mid do?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 23:22

There are fewer studies that show anything in particular around the mid infrared. I know there are various wavelengths that have been studied. The most intensively studied are in the near range and in the far range. Um 940 nanometers, I just saw study on, would be considered probably still near bordering on mid. Uh, from what I am able to understand and again I'm not the scientist here, I'm just trying to wade through the different information and and filter it um is that the wavelengths then end up in a range that makes them less effective at penetrating.

Sandy Kruse: 23:59

Basically, and far. I guess far is more of that whole body detox sweat therapy is. Does that make sense?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 24:14

yeah, so that would be sort of 11, 1200 nanometers and up and further out on the spectrum. Then the wavelengths are so long that they actually do not penetrate the skin, but they interact with it, as I was mentioning before, so they induce a sweat response yeah, so I guess it has some benefit, depending on what you're going for, right?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 24:34

Yeah, it is, and it's more you get into the infrared. Let's say, the further you get out on the infrared spectrum, the more heat you generate. Right, and heat therapy has its own uses, just like cold therapy and others. But when we're talking about near infrared and red light, we're talking about a specific modality that's able to treat in a way like you're stimulating your cells to be stronger and better at what they do, to be more efficient, and that's a completely different modality than applying heat and cold, for example, which can be beneficial for circulation, and there's a reason why a lot of athletes use it. But what's unique about neuroinfrared light is this capacity to actually feed more energy to the cells.

Sandy Kruse: 25:20

So then it has like it would. Logically, it would make sense that you know it's not a one and done it continues. If you use it regularly, it's continuing to do good things for your body. Does that make sense?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 25:36

It really does and it's consistent use over time is what will yield the real benefits. And I sometimes worry that a lot of the hype around the space and the confusion is coming from. You know all the marketing like this, like relieve pain, reduce inflammation, get rid of this and that and all of it that it's the impression that it's just a quick miracle kind of fix and you can just use it for half an hour one day and then it's fine. It really you need to use it over time. In some cases you can get results very quickly, but mostly, and if it's any kind of issue you've had for a while, it's something you have to integrate into your daily life.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 26:16

And that's actually where we started, when we wanted to innovate on the existing red light therapy out there was realizing that, yes, you can buy a lamp or you can hang a panel on your wall and stand in front of it, but in order to get benefits from red light therapy you have to be consistent in using it. And if you have a complicated or like it's a more cumbersome way, we know that compliance goes down as in people stop using it over time. You know we all go through that initial phase of the honeymoon, of like, oh, this is exciting, I read about this new thing and I'm going to try it. And then after a while, um, taking off all your clothes and standing in front of a sort of a panel for half an hour, like every night, it gets old fast. So our vision of this is that it has to be something that is in skin contact, close to you, portable, so that you can you can integrate it into any part of your day, and that's what we set out to do with FlexBeam.

Sandy Kruse: 27:17

Yeah, because I'm one of those panel users and I don't, at the start, exactly like what you said. Like you know you go. I feel like it's just not as effective either. Versus, let's say, I'm just going to give an example here, just throwing this out there let's say you're somebody who kind of has issues with tendons right, I actually know I have more of a predisposition to having tendinitis genetically and I've had chronic Achilles tendinitis. I actually had to do PRP many years ago and it worked. But I feel like when you have a chronic issue in an area let's say you're a golfer and I personally know through experience that when it's applied directly onto the body it's just more effective.

Sandy Kruse: 28:23

Because I have the panel and I have found that the panel is, you know, sure I might be getting a whole body effect, but when I need something more targeted, I've also used cheaper devices Bjorn, and you know I'm going to say more economical that's a nicer word, isn't it? But there's a lot of really you're not sure if it's really doing the work. So people who are looking for something that is proven, what do they look for? Because we know there's a lot of these little devices that you can just put on your body that say they're red light therapy and do all these magical things. What?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 29:11

do we look for? Yeah, there's a couple of things to look for that are differentiating marks, I think, of a good device versus a not, or one that is questionable. But if we start with panels like the comparison with panels, for example there are many professional grade panels out there that really have great power output and have the right dosage Like they're actually like really good panels you might have one of those. Like we know, most of the panels on the market they actually all come from one of two factories in China that produce them and then they're branded and lots of people are competing with the same idea. Basically, if you have the right LEDs in them and so on, you get the right output. The same idea basically, if you have the right LEDs in them and so on, you get the right output. The issue with panels has to do with compliance that you just talked about, and just over time it's more cumbersome. But it's also about effectiveness, because you can't stand very close to a panel like very close, and stick your skin close to it without kind of burning your skin, because they're very hot. They also have a lot of radiation, like EMF radiation for those who are watching that as well and so you need to stand at a distance, and that's what they recommend. Also, the further away you are from a panel I mean only if you are 10 inches away from a panel you lost something like 80% of the output, right, because it's only effective close to the light source itself, but you have to stand away from it, and you have to be evenly away from it, which is even more difficult with a curved body and so on. So if you're standing up front of the panel, your nose is getting more exposure than your ears, right, just because of the penetration depth. Yeah, all of this is kind of of it's physics and it's just uh, transforming like very strong, good lights into a practical usage. So that's why we wanted to develop a different, something you could wear on the skin and so on.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 31:04

The other differentiating factor other than form factor for use, uh, is power, which is the other part of effectiveness, right. So you need to have the right dosage, and our inventor's rule of thumb for this is if it doesn't have a fan, it's not strong enough. So any belt out there, any little pad or panel that has it, can have tons. I have seen ones that have like hundreds of leds, right, like little red diamonds all around. It looks like it covers a lot, like we run that through our tests and our optical spectrum analyzers and measure the output. I mean the total output is like a 20th of what a panel or a flex beam will have right, or like sometimes even just one percent of it is like it's mega ineffective. So from a pure physics perspective, you cannot apply that even straight on your skin and get more than just fractional kind of penetration, because the dose is just not there, it's not strong enough.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 32:05

Uh, so that's the reason why you will find cheaper contraptions on the market. Especially Amazon is like a sea of garbage that we see like devices that have all the same claims that is associated with red light therapy. All of those claims associated with red light therapy are also cleared by the FDA as a certain medical class, status, etc. Status, et cetera. So there are things you can benchmark against. That it's it's devices in this category are known to or are okay to say that it, you know, heals in various ways and reduces inflammation, all of that stuff. But they're kind of free riding on the medical category with completely ineffective devices that have minimal output. Um, so you may see some skin uh improvements, for example by using something like, uh like a cheap belt type solution in that area, but any serious charging over your mitochondria, it's just not going to happen.

Sandy Kruse: 33:01

That is so important, what you just said, because I actually I think I did a show on red light therapy, like maybe it was in my first year and I think that was what was missing. We talked about the like the nanometers, you know, for near mid far. We talked about that. But you just mentioned the fan. So I have, I have, that panel that I told you about and it has a fan.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 33:34

Yeah.

Sandy Kruse: 33:35

I have your FlexBeam right here. For those of you who are actually watching this. This is what a FlexBeam looks like and I've been using it and I'll explain what I've been using it for in a minute. But I also have those cheap little belts, because they're cheap, cheap and cheerful, so, but there's no fan and what's really fascinating. So for anybody who's listening, you will see that they are FDA compliant because their little belt carries that proper whatever spectrum nanometers for the device to be classified. However, it's missing the fan, it's missing the power. You will not get the same bang for your buck. Let's just say You're not going to get the results.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 34:35

That's exactly right, and it's about dosage and I think it's the missing piece even in the FDA compliance because, you're totally right, it's associated with wavelength and everybody talks about wavelength and there's a lot of nerding out there about specific wavelengths and so on, and from all the research that we can see is that within a spectrum it's all effective within a certain spectrum.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 34:57

What really matters, beyond just being within this generally part of the spectrum that clearly works, is really much more important is the output. So whether it's an optical power, like how many watts it gives as a total, and irradiance, which is a measure of how dense that energy is on your skin, that those are the factors that go into a dose, and dose is just one of those things that heavily researched and I mean we can talk about uh, also the, the different, like there's ranges within which it's very effective, that we can see, and it varies individually. But all of those sort of cheaper devices that don't have built-in fans that means the light are not powerful enough, that's, and it's not out enough output in the light to cool them down, right, like to be cooled down none of those devices are able to give you a dose anything near what is being demonstrated as necessary.

Sandy Kruse: 36:01

To actually do anything that's going to be lasting in the body. Yeah, that's very powerful for you guys who are listening. Just you know if you're going to get anything out of like and to understand because it's so crowded out there in red light. Just understand that. And, of course, look at the wavelengths, but you know it's going to have the right wavelengths if it's saying it's FDA cleared right.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 36:27

Yeah, it's. A more distinguishing mark is the energy density and the dosage, like basically how much light is being fed, because that also determines the ability to penetrate. To put it this way, a weaker device will also not penetrate, it will not give you the dose, but it will also not travel far enough into your body and to hit enough cells to actually for that theoretical energy at the surface to be actually taken up, to actually for that theoretical energy at the surface to be actually taken up. So, in a certain sense, the more powerful your dosage, the deeper it's going to go and the more energy it's going to give you. That being said, there's a different side to this, where too much is also not a great thing. So you don't necessarily want to grill yourself, but you just want to make sure that you are, like within at least above that minimum threshold actually a little bit above but that it's powerful enough to stimulate more of your cells.

Sandy Kruse: 37:19

Oh question, since you mentioned that we don't want to grill ourselves, of course, like you, don't want to fry in the sun either, but are there any contraindications for anybody who's using a red light therapy device that is really powerful, like yours?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 37:38

Generally speaking, no Like. There are a couple of groups I'll return to like specific cases, but generally speaking this is what's kind of fascinating about near infrared light is there are no known side effects to doing too much, for example, what too much means is that your body adapts too quickly and therefore you don't get an effect. Now that's a strange notion in the body that's called a hormetic stress response. So your cells, basically they respond because they're being stressed into becoming stronger. To put it this way, it's the same principle as goes into something like cold plunging. It's the same principle, really that goes into hard exercise, for example, is that you are temporarily making your cells weaker and more stressed in order for them to bounce back.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 38:47

So everything, all the research on dosage is about finding there's an optimal window. It's sometimes referred to as the biphasic dose response. It is like a Goldilocks zone in the middle where you hit just the right notes. The body is appropriately or adequately stressed, but doesn't get so much that it can't quickly recover from it either. So too little, we already covered. That's like clear from the weak lights, then no response. But too much just leads to the body basically over adapting and you're not getting the response you need.

Sandy Kruse: 39:20

That makes a lot of sense for me, because I am like the queen of balance. I actually have a t-shirt that says it's all about the balance, you know.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 39:29

It's all about the balance.

Sandy Kruse: 39:31

Yeah, but that's life, it's all about the balance in everything in life. So it does make sense to me, because when I was really using that panel in my little therapy room the big one it said your body. There will be no benefit to your body if you use it for longer than 15 minutes and within I think it was six hours or something or maybe eight hours. So basically you could do it like in the morning and you could do it in the evening and you'll kind of have that balance. If you do it anymore it's really not going to benefit you. So it's kind of like you work with a lot of athletes, right.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 40:16

Yeah, that's right. We have a lot of athletes and sort of biohackers and health professionals are ambassadors and use the device heavily.

Sandy Kruse: 40:25

So how do they use it, bjorn? How does an athlete use it? How does an athlete use it? How does somebody who's even still because most of my listeners are over 40, we're not talking about 20 year olds, who have a little bit more you know, resiliency and youth behind them, right? So if you're over 40, you know, I personally have taken a little bit of time off from the gym. There's reasons for that, but there's a lot of people who are massively, you know, workout enthusiasts. So how do they use this?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 41:06

So one of the strange or weird things about red light therapy that makes the whole space confusing, I think, is that the potential, like the list of potential benefits and applications, is just so long that it almost sounds ridiculous Like from we talked about pain and inflammation, muscle repair and so on, and then you can. The list goes on and on and on and it's like it sounds too much. It sounds like one of those American infomercials from the 90s, kind of it's like wait, there's more, there's this. Uh, right, so, and we see this we survey our users, what they use red light therapy for, and it really is covers a whole range of different applications. But broadly speaking, I would say there are two main sort of ways for our device, which is portable or like a wearable in the sports fields.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 41:54

It is targeted for any for injuries or prevention of injuries. That's why most of our soccer players, tennis players, golfers and so on have embraced it. That has to do with the nature. The design of the device is that it can wrap around any part of your body, so it actually folds completely around an elbow or around a knee, for example, which means you get light from multiple angles and, as we just talked about. It penetrates right and it can penetrate from three different angles at the same time.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 42:26

You can treat deep into a meniscus, you can treat like into an elbow joint. So this makes it unparalleled in effectiveness for treating something relatively deep or anything targeted in the body. So for a lot of athletes, for any hips or joints or any targeted areas I think most of us have some sort of spot in the body that's weaker or that is more prone to injury or that is maybe recovering from an old injury. So for any such uses it's a very easy solution, so to speak, and that it's actually just. You just roll it around wherever you need some of that extra attention and just blast the energy right there where it's needed. So that would be the sort of the more the most common use for anybody. Really, you don't even have to be an athlete to use it this way.

Sandy Kruse: 43:13

But that's the sports angle can I, can I just interject here? So I think this is an important point because I have a lot of women who listen, who are perimenopausal or menopausal or even past menopause, and there I have a lot of women in my community who are not taking bioidentical hormones. And this is no judgment, it's just saying, you know it's not for them. And a very well, I'm going to say it this way A very well-researched point is that when our estrogen declines as women, we tend to get more aches and pains. Okay.

Sandy Kruse: 43:57

So, and just like what you said, bjorn, a lot of people have a weak spot. It's like that, you know, like I know for me, right around the time I was beginning late stages of perimenopause, I started to develop problems with my wrist and it's like my weak link. So I will say this is an excellent application for women who have that weak link, and that can be whether you're on HRT or not, like I'm on it, but because I have thyroid issues, you know that, in addition to being in menopause those two factors this has been amazing for me. And then I also want to say there's amazing benefits for women who want their skin to look better too, right, yeah, which is remarkable, isn't it?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 44:55

That it also works for the skin, which we haven't even talked about. No, no, no.

Sandy Kruse: 44:59

But I wanted to mention because I know you're talking about athletes because so many women who listen to my podcast are in my same age category. I want to mention I know a lot of women, honestly, that are my age. I don't think I know a single woman that doesn't have something wrong, whether it's frozen shoulder or problems with their elbow, problems with their knee, problems with their feet. It's amazing. I don't think it's talked about enough, but FlexBeam I've been using it in, you know, my little hyperthyroid state that I've been in for a while and it's really helped me. But it can also help women who are in a hypothyroid state, women who are in a perimenopausal or menopausal state. So you don't have to be an athlete to use something like this. I just had to interject there because I know that there's so many women who will go oh my God, yes, I need that.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 45:56

Yeah, and that's actually a perfect bridge or interjection for like between the two broad areas that we see of usage for flex beam. So the sports athlete driven one, it's really muscular, skeletal right. Sports athlete driven one, it's really muscular, skeletal right. So it's repairing anything that is either your muscles or any joint, tendon, ligament, skeletal kind of function is in some way impaired. This kind of treatment is like is unparalleled for that and that's why it's a no brainer for a lot of top athletes to use and then for people who are generally, but for anyone that has this kind of issue.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 46:33

The other broader category is what I would call a health category. That is much more about. It's about gut health, it's about organ health, women's health. This is actually a big emerging issue from a lot of our users. Big emerging issue from a lot of our users can be used against endometriosis and complications around this period, pain cramps, muscle, menstrual cramps. It's based fertility as well, because you can again, you can target a certain area into your ovaries with the light if you do it at the right setting. So a lot of these sort of more internal kind of uses that are health promoting. Longevity is a big thing as well, and then a lot of the uses are either along the spine or on the gut or directly on the organ. This is a kind of use that is, we are seeing a pattern among our users. It's very, very common. I think there is an increased focus and awareness around our general state of health that you don't need to necessarily have pain in your elbow specifically from an event to be able to benefit from a targeted treatment like this.

Sandy Kruse: 47:49

That's amazing. So you can put this device on your belly just to improve your gut health in general.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 47:59

Yeah, and in fact this is now one of the most popular applications we have and we designed this. When you see the device you held up and show it to your listeners, anyone that wants to check it out online as well. You'll see it sort of designed and optimized for like wrapping around a shoulder, elbow, et cetera, or anywhere on the body for musculoskeletal. What we didn't really quite expect was all these uses around gut health and organs and so on. So with gut health there is a steady flow of new studies and Dr Zulia Frost, who's our medical doctor, who's one of my co-founders she sends me sort of every week new studies that are emerging in this field and in gut health.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 48:38

There's some very, very interesting one that show changes to the intestinal flora. Your whole microbiome is affected by the light, provided of course you can reach it with an appropriate dose. But by the light provided of course you can reach it with an appropriate dose. But all the light receptors in your gut respond to this light and because your gut is so linked to your brain through the gut-brain axis or this neural pathway, it can also have cognitive effect for a lot of people. So we have special protocols for that, like how to improve your gut health over time with a device like this.

Sandy Kruse: 49:13

That's amazing. So, wow, I wonder. I'm just curious, I wonder if there's any research. Maybe you would know this is I'm just top of my head thinking about this. You know, here in Canada there's been so many people who have had this walking pneumonia Like I'm wondering if it would help the lungs. If there's any research there.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 49:36

There's a lot of emergent research on long COVID and post-COVID type studies that show a definite effect in, like recovery times for people. I myself was one of those. Like I got a really bad case of COVID a few years ago when it was finally hit me, in which it was really lodged in my throat and I mean I think I was advised to take all kinds of antivirals and crazy things or just like trying all of these different things to try to keep this at bay, and in the end it was actually my own flex beam that I applied as it occurred around like this and put one light diode straight on my throat for 20, 30 minutes a day, like really just the kind of aggressively going at it with near infrared light, just right where it was lodged and for what it's worth, it was the most effective, like nothing else really helped it. But once I started doing that, it kind of reversed it very quickly and we know a lot.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 50:39

We have a lot of use cases that suggest using it over the lungs can help with any respiratory infection or recovering from it, and the reason again, like why this makes sense is that you have a lot of mitochondria in your lungs and you are able to.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 50:58

With a flex beam you can actually reach into your lungs and stimulate them so that they recover much faster. In fact Dr Zulid just sent me a study yesterday that was doing this like test control groups, randomized control, trial, um comparing red light therapy. They didn't use flex beam but a comparable device with the comparable like in terms of output and wavelengths, um that really showed like remarkable results, like 30 40 faster recovery for patients in the long covid. I'm happy to link to the study if you want to for your listeners, but these kinds of results are kind of mind-blowing. But again, when you understand the sort of the mechanism, how it works, it makes sense that it has a lot of these potential upsides or benefits for, like, respiratory type illnesses. So recovering from a cold, for example, much faster with a device like ours.

Sandy Kruse: 51:55

This is fascinating to me because I didn't even think about asking that until I was talking to you. I'm like, oh my God, like the lungs. Yes, so many mitochondria within the lungs and a lot of times, okay, I also had COVID and you know, I don't. I don't know this was. It would have been like at least two or three years ago when I got it and I had that, you know, the six or eight week cough that never goes away, and I never would have thought of red light to help with this. Because you know, just like you, you know I was given all this stuff puffers, steroids, antibiotics, all that stuff and truly what helped was I actually finally started taking high doses of N-acetylcysteine, finally started taking high doses of N-acetylcysteine, and then I resolved it kind of myself because I had to take matters in my own hand. I'm like I'm not coughing anymore. Damn it, I can't do this anymore. But you know what Does your website have? A lot of the research on there, bjorn?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 53:06

Yeah, we have a scientific studies section in which we give abstracts but we also link to the original study so you can get a glance. Look at the studies that you want. Like that are more interesting for you. But there's this curated selection I would say, so I'm going to make sure I put you know obviously in the description.

Sandy Kruse: 53:26

I will have your website, I will have your website, but maybe I will also put I'm going to have to remind myself put a link to the link that is specifically for the research, because a lot of people want to see the research Now in the research. Here's a question for you Does it so? It will talk about the spectrum and the wavelengths, but does it also talk about the power part of it, like your device actually has, like output information, does it?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 54:01

Yes, and you'll find it in most devices and also in most studies it's specified. If it's a serious study it's specified the output, at least the irradiance or the density of the device. So that's usually possible to ascertain. I can mention in the COVID study I just saw, which is very recent, there was a 30% faster discharge from hospital for that group that used a comparable device to ours in terms of output and wavelength, right, but they measured it against this pretty large control group a comparable device to ours in terms of output and wavelength, but they measured it against this pretty large control group, measured it against antibiotic and physiotherapy. So one group got antibiotics and they got physiotherapy and the other group got red light therapy and the LED, like this, treatment with red light therapy was twice as effective on all the markers for heart health and lung health heart health.

Sandy Kruse: 54:56

How does it affect heart health?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 54:58

uh, that has to do with the circulation in in your whole bloodstream and the impact on red blood cell. I mean the link between the heart and the lungs was also measured here. This is like pulmonary diseases type studies and so on.

Sandy Kruse: 55:13

That's amazing. I'm so glad we uncovered this in this recording Because I don't think a lot of people know this, Bjorn.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 55:23

No, it was really fascinating research. And again, the game changer here is like near infrared right Light at the right dosage, right? Uh, I think a lot of the hype around red light therapy and a lot of people hear about it now is the red of red light therapy which we haven't talked about yet, which has to do with skin.

Sandy Kruse: 55:45

You, may have seen how cosmetic applications there are.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 55:47

You may have seen how cosmetic applications there are.

Sandy Kruse: 55:49

Yes.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 55:51

And probably for a lot of listeners of yours as well, like red light therapy is maybe primarily they've heard of it through something like a mask or something like an application for skin.

Sandy Kruse: 56:05

Right, but those masks, they don't have a fan, do they?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 56:13

No, and they don't have any infrared light. So here is this is one of the most confusing points that we're faced with. So when you have a panel like you're using and like our version now, flexbeam, which is a more like a newer, more advanced innovation on that, but it's basically the same output as a panel. It's just packed into a kind of a belt-like shape, both of those. We call it red light therapy, but it's really red plus near infrared, and the near infrared is very strong In our device. It's particularly what we emphasize. But a typical panel and also flex pin will have both of those wavelengths. So red works for the skin and near infrared under the skin. However, this whole new mask sensation that has appeared in all the cosmetic applications that are all as red light therapy red light therapy is just red light, so it only goes skin level.

Sandy Kruse: 57:04

Like, just like, probably like the first, you know layer or two. It doesn't go deep enough to really make lasting change, would you say. Does that make sense?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 57:14

I would differentiate it as that it will work on the skin. It will give you very nice and glowing skin, but it will not stimulate cells underneath the skin or it won't have the effect that infrared light is able to give, because it penetrates Right. So a mask can give you a very like a. A mask can give you a very like a good mask will give you a good glow, so to speak. Like. It will work on the skin, because the red light is very clearly shown to improve collagen production and elastin production in the skin, and so there's a very good reason why it's sort of exploding as a as a phenomenon. What gets confusing is that it then covers over near infrared light, which is really the more powerful, deeper kind of penetration and more health benefits you get.

Sandy Kruse: 58:00

So red light only is is really only works on the skin so because I'm just kind of thinking, because women my age, you know, we've got a few issues Like we've got like the skin, we get melasma, we get wrinkles, but then we also get jowls. I'm just making aging so beautiful, aren't I?

Sandy Kruse: 58:28

Let's be honest, I like it yeah but it's true, right, these are the issues and I like I had to do a lot of work to get my skin to where it is now, and I had to because I really didn't care much for my skin when I was younger, let's just say, and also, health has a big, it has a huge impact on your glow.

Sandy Kruse: 58:52

How you look on the outside, it's always inside out, right, of course. So this to me, I'm just thinking logically so if I just go and buy one of those really expensive masks because they are expensive I mean, I've seen them upwards of even five grand for some like that's a lot You're going to get probably maybe a little bit of fading of melasma, right, because it's like skin surface, but it's probably not going to work deep enough to help with, like you know that I like to say because I'm a big skin geek, you know, getting that snatch jawline, not having the jowls Well, you need to go a little deeper for that. So it kind of makes logical sense that you got to go more with a more powerful light spectrum. With a more powerful light spectrum Does that make sense?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 59:52

Yeah, it does. However, if you only have red light, you don't necessarily need to have extremely high power necessarily, because if it's close to the skin, what you want is to cover it as evenly as possible with a certain kind of dosage. But the power is particularly important for near infrared because it affects the penetration possibility in there, what else you stimulate. So you're 100% right in that being able to penetrate more deeply and to treat more deeply leads to better overall health, which then has its impact on the skin anyway. It's just that red light has its own like surface level effect as well that you can get.

Sandy Kruse: 1:00:41

See, yeah, I get it like the red light, but I'm just thinking. You know it should improve elasticity of the skin too, right? If it's going to improve collagen improves elasticity, which would help with the jowls. It's kind of like this you know, wonderful downstream positive effect.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:01:03

Yeah, like if you have both. It's the most beneficial. If you have near infrared and red, it's like you get deeper, but most of the masks and most of the cosmetic applications will only be red and if they have near infrared built in, they will usually be quite sort of weak right.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:01:23

What they have going for them is they're often designed for the face, to contour around the face and so on, and they're easy to put on. So I know of some masks that really work. I also know of some masks that look similar, much cheaper, and that don't work, and I'm pretty sure some of the highest priced ones aren't necessarily better than the mid-range ones, right. So this is also a big markup territory. But overall, cheap masks also, from everything we know, don't necessarily work.

Sandy Kruse: 1:01:53

Okay, so let's, because we're I think we're almost at an hour, but I want to first of all do you have to protect your eyes when you use this, Like on your, because I haven't used it on my face yet.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:02:07

No, I mean as long as you avoid staring directly into the light for any long time. I mean, if you just close your eyes while you're using it, then it's totally fine.

Sandy Kruse: 1:02:18

Because I think I saw some research about if you use red light just with your eyes closed, it can actually help with things like macular degeneration and it's actually good for your eyes, but not, like you said, staring right into it. Does that make sense?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:02:37

Yeah, this is some of the more interesting research in recent years that have emerged. A lot of attention on how it could potentially reverse cornea conditions. It can be very helpful for macular conditions with red light specifically. That being said, it's more recent than the cases we've seen. It's more experimental and it's all very specific to dose. So be careful if you want to experiment this way. We don't recommend anybody just using it like a regular muscle session and just do 10 minutes and stare into the lid. That's really not advisable because it's a very specific kind of condition.

Sandy Kruse: 1:03:15

Okay, yeah, and again you know we are saying, we're just not dangerous. We're just having a discussion here. You have to talk to your own practitioner about anything that you're going to do that you know you're not sure about and that might affect your health. So make sure you do that. But I want to quickly look at this, because your flex beam has three different options. Why is that?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:03:43

Yeah, and it relates exactly to what we've been discussing now the difference between near infrared light and red, discussing now the difference between near-infrared light and red. So we wanted to give people an easy way to differentiate a skin treatment from a deep tissue kind of session. So we have three settings. The first one is skin mode, so it's primarily red light, so it's similar light spectrum as you will find in a very advanced mask. We don't usually promote it for the face because if you look at the way it's designed and shaped it isn't really like it's really designed for like to cover any kind of body part. But you can use it for your face. If you just hold it, say, 10 centimeters away or something, you can light up your whole face and get a nice even glow. So you can't use Flexbeam for your face or any part of your skin. But often people are looking for something specific, like they buy a face mask separately.

Sandy Kruse: 1:04:40

So you don't want to lie on the couch with it just like on your face, you have to hold it farther away.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:04:46

I mean, if you put it, it's just the practicality thing, Sandy, that if you just crunch it on your face, you're going to get certain spots of your face are treated, but not the whole thing.

Sandy Kruse: 1:04:56

Got it.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:04:57

So if you can hold it at this kind of distance, like to here in front, you will get an even glow around so that your whole face will be affected. So it's totally possible to use FlexBeam for that, and that's number one.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:05:12

That's for setting, one Very often used, or like more frequently used perhaps with wound healing or anything also on the body, like for scars to heal faster, etc. Then you want the surface setting with maximum red light and a little bit of near infrared to get sort of just into the epidermis, but not more.

Sandy Kruse: 1:05:32

Okay.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:05:33

Setting two is comparable to what you have in your panel, I believe, which is equal amounts of red and near infrared. They're both these bandwidths at the same time and both quite strong. So that's the medium like that's the center option. If you're ever in doubt it's never really wrong you can always use setting two. And then we have setting three, which is our particular innovation is we just maximize the near infrared and we have just a little bit of red so that you get conduction of light all the way through the skin and also skin sort of reaction to it. But it's really the whole thing is that it goes deeper. So we call that the deep tissue kind of treatment. That's what you would use if you need, for example, to treat into a joint.

Sandy Kruse: 1:06:18

Okay, that will have a deeper penetration. I guess, or if you want to do a little bit of you know gut health work, you want to use number three because you want to have it a little deeper, right, yes?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:06:31

Two will also work because it will penetrate and give more on the skin level and a little bit further in, but three will go the deepest. So, yeah, reaching more deeply in, or if there's an organ you're trying to target for a few minutes, or something like this, then setting three is probably the most popular setting on the device, which is quite unique for red light therapy devices as well, to have an infrared or predominantly near infrared setting.

Sandy Kruse: 1:06:56

I'm just thinking see, this is my brain turning. I'm just thinking this would be great for saggy skin on your abs too.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:07:10

Yeah, I think then you want to to use setting two, which has more red light in it as well, and you get them a more sort of complete, um, complete range of treatment from the skin level and in yeah, yeah, you must think I'm so shallow, I'm really interested in the, the aesthetics, so not at all, and a lot of our users are, and of course it's.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:07:32

I mean, we're talking about so many potential benefits and applications and it's a targeted device. I mean sometimes maybe the the biggest challenge is where. Where do you want to start and treat first, because you can't do everything at the same time and all day around either for it to be effective.

Sandy Kruse: 1:07:47

Yeah, this is. This is such a great conversation. We covered so much. Is there anything that we missed that you wanted to mention before we close off?

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:08:02

I think we covered the most important parts around. Now let's see wavelengths and dosage and how to differentiate different devices, and I hope this was helpful to bring some sort of clarity on some of those issues. And I think, for anyone who's eager to check out more, we have a website rechargehealth. This is where we also sell FlexBeam, which is our device, so you can either search for FlexBeam or go to rechargehealth. We have lots of scientific studies and more background information.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:08:35

For anyone that wants to deep dive a bit more and learn about specifics, we have also introduced a membership program that's guided by our doctor, medical doctor. So we have a space base. There's a free space that you can access, with protocols for specific things like gut health, immune support, all of those different things that are our doctor's specific guidelines for how to get the most out of your device, like how often to use and where and so on, to personalize it. And this is also, I think, a differentiator for us in the space. We want to innovate on the device itself, but it's really about education and making sure that people understand and that they can use it properly, and then new uses are also invented as we go along. I mean the stuff about gut health and some of the glands that we talked about. We didn't really have this in mind when we designed it and we discovered our users are reporting back. Hey, it's amazing for my liver, right, and it's like, oh, oh, yeah, but that makes sense. And then we make a liver support protocol for it, etc.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:09:34

So I love that we are also evolving this as part of a part of the business, and soon we will also have an app that makes it easier for people to get the guidelines straight on their phone. Um so uh, I encourage you to have a look there and to check out some of those features, and especially around the education of it.

Sandy Kruse: 1:09:55

This has been such a great and you know very. I think we uncovered some different things in this conversation than the usual, which is what I always like to do, so thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation.

Bjorn Ekeberg: 1:10:13

Thank you so much, Sandy. It was a pleasure to be on. Thanks for having me.

Sandy Kruse: 1:10:20

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to share it with someone you know might benefit, and always remember when you rate, review, subscribe, you help to support my content and help me to keep going and bringing these conversations to you each and every week. Join me next week for a new topic, new guest, new exciting conversations to help you live your best life.